Magnus
Casual Heathen
Posts: 15
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Post by Magnus on Nov 4, 2003 13:29:23 GMT -5
a·the·ist ( P ) Pronunciation Key (th-st) n. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods. anti-Christian Antichristian \An`ti*chris"tian\ (?; 106), a. Opposed to the Christian religion. straight from www.dictionary.com . by all account, two entirely different words. One would should have no trouble telling them apart. Everything that I have seen (and I'm going to assume your charter, all though I have not read it) states that MSUFTA is an atheist organization. That's what I came to this site expecting. I was rather shocked to find that it is not, in fact, an atheist organization. A true atheist organization would simply ignore Christianity as meaningless, rather than attempting to ridicule it at every chance they got, which is what the majority of this board seems devoted to. If you want to be atheists, fine, be atheists. If not, perhaps you should reword your charter and knock it off with the false advertising. go ahead and change your name to the MSUACA, rather than hiding your warped convictions under a false pretense. |
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Post by Frogsy on Nov 4, 2003 13:38:55 GMT -5
*sigh*
Magnus, Magnus, Magnus... have you not learned *anything* at this rather large higher institute of learning?
The first rule of making a claim is that said claim must be backed up with facts. You may want to try it some time. I don't recall anyone EVER saying that MSUFA is an atheist organization. Anywhere. Perhaps you should read said charter before you go claiming that we are an atheist organization, hm?
I will check back later to see if you have done so. If you've not, I'll assume you just have no idea what you're talking about and just want to stir up trouble ;D
-Jessica "You take the good, you take the bad, you take them both and there you have the facts of life" Leiby
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Post by ebonywnd on Nov 4, 2003 13:54:10 GMT -5
Firstly, Atheist and anti-christian are not mutually exclusive. There are just some people who believe that christianity is a blight on humanity, some who only respond to aggressive assaults on them (such as attempted conversion), and there are some who are opposed to mass stupidity in all forms. If I left any categories out, please feel free to add them.
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Post by ebonywnd on Nov 4, 2003 13:58:26 GMT -5
Oh yes, and secondly....we are a bunch of freethinkers (thus, Freethinker Alliance). Most of us are not religious, but some of us are.
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Post by the anti-myrmidon on Nov 4, 2003 14:10:44 GMT -5
In addition to the other points made here, I would also like to point out that our members have differing views about most things. MSUFA simply provides a forum for freethinkers to discuss various issues; what those freethinkers actually think about them is a personal matter. Some of our members may indeed be anti-religious, but to make such a blanket statement as to generalize all of the MSUFA membership as being such is rather rude and inconsiderate. I, for one, am not anti-religious. Yes, I have some problems with Christianity as well as other faiths, but I also have problems with the freethought community as well. I would appreciate it if you would avoid these gross generalizations in the future, because most people cannot be boiled down to one simple label, much less a group composed of many people.
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Post by FishBait on Nov 4, 2003 14:35:08 GMT -5
Chris·tian ( P ) Pronunciation Key (krschn)
adj.
Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
right ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rt)
adj. right·er, right·est
Conforming with or conformable to justice, law, or morality: do the right thing and confess.
In accordance with fact, reason, or truth; correct: the right answer.
hey, christian and right have different definitions so by your logic christians can't be right
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Magnus
Casual Heathen
Posts: 15
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Post by Magnus on Nov 4, 2003 16:21:12 GMT -5
as i said, i've not read your charter. however, most of your site seems to be promoting the idea (intentionally or otherwise) of the MSUFA as an atheist organization. i would be interested in reading your charter, if you would be so kind as to tell me where i might go about doing so.
as far as atheists and anti-Christians not being mutually exclusive, atheism denies the validness of religion. it doesn't seek to tear down one religion or another.
and lastly, a childish attempt to use my own words against me. comparing two sets of beliefs is one thing definitions are good for. comparing a set of beliefs with an adjective describing a state of being, doesn't work. using your twisted form of logic, we would get:
ex·ist ( P ) Pronunciation Key (g-zst)
intr.v. ex·ist·ed, ex·ist·ing, ex·ists
To have actual being; be real.
grav·i·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (grv-t)
n.
Physics.
The natural force of attraction exerted by a celestial body, such as Earth, upon objects at or near its surface, tending to draw them toward the center of the body.
light1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lt)
n.
Physics.
Electromagnetic radiation that has a wavelength in the range from about 4,000 (violet) to about 7,700 (red) angstroms and may be perceived by the normal unaided human eye.
Electromagnetic radiation of any wavelength.
and countless other scientific definitions that don't coincide with the word "exist". does this mean that light and gravity do not exist? no more than the lack of the word "right" not having the same definition as "Christian" takes away the validity of said religion.
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Post by Frogsy on Nov 4, 2003 16:31:10 GMT -5
Magnus... You can find copies of our Constitution at any of our meetings. We always have several copies on hand for those who wish to read it. Or, if you'd rather have us mail one to you, feel free to let us know where to send it to. However, if you come to our meetings, you may enjoy the company of not only we atheists, but perhaps of our Christian members as well. Hell, if you look under the "About Us" section of the webpage, the question "Who is MSUFA for?" is answered: "Everyone. We open our meetings and events to the entire MSU community, and the off-campus community as well. The only restriction is MSU’s policy that only registered students can participate as voting members or as officers. One need not be atheist, humanist, agnostic etc., although that does make up the majority of our members. Remember – we’re freethinkers. There’s room for all ideologies, as long as you are respectful in your disagreement with another’s viewpoints. To that end, we’ve even had openly theistic members in the past. " Guess we're not so anti-Christian after all.  |
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Post by the anti-myrmidon on Nov 4, 2003 17:53:26 GMT -5
Magnus, when you say that you get the impression from our site that we are an atheist organization, do you mean the actual MSUFA website, or just this message board? Indeed, many of our members are atheists, but not all. Yet the website for the group itself makes no claim to being an atheist organization; in fact, it repeatedly emphasizes the inclusive nature of the group. Again, all our individual members have their own opinions about many different things, yet those opinions are held independently of the group itself.
Furthermore, if we are an anti-Christian organization as you claim, then please demonstrate that by showing something that the GROUP (note, not individuals' opinions or postings on this board) has done, such as an activity or event, which would supply evidence for your claim.
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Magnus
Casual Heathen
Posts: 15
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Post by Magnus on Nov 4, 2003 19:10:08 GMT -5
how about the ranking system on the board? i know on the previous message board at least, 4 or 5 stars garnered the rank "honorary anti-Christ".
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Post by Frogsy on Nov 4, 2003 19:25:27 GMT -5
Magnus-
The titles are a joke. Nothing more, nothing less.
The inspiration for them stems from the world's perceptions of freethinkers... i.e. that we are all heathens, heretics, etc... right on up to "anti-Christ."
They are by no means serious.
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Post by Ravenlock on Nov 4, 2003 20:34:02 GMT -5
Whoa, Magnus! Let's bring it down a notch here, m'kay?
Now, at risk of overstating some points in the posts before me (sorry.. again, I would have loved to get into this when the first shots were fired, but today was another busy day), allow me to make some observations.
Our constitution is available to whomever requests it, but I won't give you false hope that it says anything more than this when it comes to our purpose for existance at MSU:
Article 1, Section 2:
"The purpose of this organization shall be to promote awareness, understanding, and networking for students and other community members who identify themselves as, humanists, skeptics, atheists, rationalists, agnostics, or other freethinkers, and for others who support such worldviews. The organization intends to accomplish this with educational, recreational, activist and other social activities."
Beyond that it gets into the standard dry stuff they insist every RSO constitution at MSU has, such as operations, duties, etc.
If there is anything that could really be called a charter, then it would be the "About Us" section Frogsy referred to. It is very clear about what we're here to do, and even has something of a pre-emptive strike for red herrings like yours today. From the bottom of that page:
"Why are you theophobes out to destroy religion?
MSUFA, and many other groups of its like, are trying to do nothing of the sort. We respect the American right to freedom of religion – just as dearly as we respect our right to freedom from religion. Our goal is not suppression. Our goal is inclusion for every ideology at MSU, and in America."
And this stuff about the Honorary Anti-Christ (which is still the highest post count on the new board) is just absurd. It IS a joke in the purist form, as Frogsy said, and I underscore the challenge the anti-myrmidon issued:
Show us something MSUFA has done or said that is REALLY anti-christian.
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Post by FishBait on Nov 4, 2003 22:36:51 GMT -5
as i said, i've not read your charter. however, most of your site seems to be promoting the idea (intentionally or otherwise) of the MSUFA as an atheist organization. i would be interested in reading your charter, if you would be so kind as to tell me where i might go about doing so. as far as atheists and anti-Christians not being mutually exclusive, atheism denies the validness of religion. it doesn't seek to tear down one religion or another. and lastly, a childish attempt to use my own words against me. comparing two sets of beliefs is one thing definitions are good for. comparing a set of beliefs with an adjective describing a state of being, doesn't work. using your twisted form of logic, we would get: ex·ist ( P ) Pronunciation Key (g-zst) intr.v. ex·ist·ed, ex·ist·ing, ex·ists To have actual being; be real. grav·i·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (grv-t) n. Physics. The natural force of attraction exerted by a celestial body, such as Earth, upon objects at or near its surface, tending to draw them toward the center of the body. light1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lt) n. Physics. Electromagnetic radiation that has a wavelength in the range from about 4,000 (violet) to about 7,700 (red) angstroms and may be perceived by the normal unaided human eye. Electromagnetic radiation of any wavelength. and countless other scientific definitions that don't coincide with the word "exist". does this mean that light and gravity do not exist? no more than the lack of the word "right" not having the same definition as "Christian" takes away the validity of said religion. I understand the stupidity of your own choice of trying to prove by definition that's what i was trying to display with my previous post, i just happened to pick christian and right because it seemed fitting, i wasn't actually suggesting that it was a proof that christians cannot be right, i could have very easily picked the definitions you just picked, that's the point i was trying to make, your pulling definitons of atheist and anti-christ doesn't mean anything, i'll agree they're not the same thing, that doesn't mean that most atheists aren't anti-christian, most people who aren't christian (whether they be atheist, jewish, hindu or whatever) would probably agree that they do not appreciate the way the christians feel the need to preach to others, act as if they are the only ones that could possibly be right, tell us they feel sorry for us because we haven't "seen the way", tell us we're going to hell, assume we have no morals, try to gain special rights through the government they would never like to see another religion (ex would you agree to "In Allah we trust" on your money) if this makes us anti-christian then so be it i understand that not all christians do all those things which is why most of us don't like to say that we're necessarily anti-christian, we are against the christians that fit the above stereotype |
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Post by AnonymousUser on Nov 5, 2003 13:51:36 GMT -5
as i said, i've not read your charter. however, most of your site seems to be promoting the idea (intentionally or otherwise) of the MSUFA as an atheist organization. i would be interested in reading your charter, if you would be so kind as to tell me where i might go about doing so. as far as atheists and anti-Christians not being mutually exclusive, atheism denies the validness of religion. it doesn't seek to tear down one religion or another. and lastly, a childish attempt to use my own words against me. comparing two sets of beliefs is one thing definitions are good for. comparing a set of beliefs with an adjective describing a state of being, doesn't work. using your twisted form of logic, we would get: ex·ist ( P ) Pronunciation Key (g-zst) intr.v. ex·ist·ed, ex·ist·ing, ex·ists To have actual being; be real. grav·i·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (grv-t) n. Physics. The natural force of attraction exerted by a celestial body, such as Earth, upon objects at or near its surface, tending to draw them toward the center of the body. light1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lt) n. Physics. Electromagnetic radiation that has a wavelength in the range from about 4,000 (violet) to about 7,700 (red) angstroms and may be perceived by the normal unaided human eye. Electromagnetic radiation of any wavelength. and countless other scientific definitions that don't coincide with the word "exist". does this mean that light and gravity do not exist? no more than the lack of the word "right" not having the same definition as "Christian" takes away the validity of said religion. If you are going to start trying to use logic to disprove something by comparing "a set of beliefs with an adjective describing a state of being" do it next time. Don't compare an adjective and 2 nouns. Secondly, it is an established logical fallacy to assume that an organization holds the same opinions as its constituant parts (i mean look at our current govt, it in no way holds the majority of the nations views). and I'm still waiting on some sort of evidence proving that atheism and anti-christianity are mutually exclusive. (i will the proceed to explode since then I won't be able to exist in my current state) and lastly, I invite you to an in-person debate on any topic at any of our meetings. If you do truly think you are correct, show up and try to prove it in person instead of lurking on the boards, saying one thing, having it get shot down, then switching to some other trivial detail. |
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Magnus
Casual Heathen
Posts: 15
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Post by Magnus on Nov 5, 2003 14:41:14 GMT -5
my main point as to the "mutually exclusiveness" of atheism and anti-Christianity is that one promotes tolerance of non-Christians, whereas the other promotes non-tolerance of Christians.
as far as my recent set of definitions (exist, gravity and light) , it was pointing out the flaw in that very argument, not promoting a new argument of my own.
perhaps i was a bit rash in my "stereotyping". this was due to several things. 1, a large portion of the posts on these message boards. 2, the views expressed by several members of MSUFA that know. 3, 2 friends of mine have gone to meetings of yours (not sure if it was the same meeting or seperate ones) and obtained the same opinion as i. i'm sorry if that's not enough evidence from the group for me to form an opinion of the majority. also, remember the old fable by aesop, you are judged by the company you keep.
finally, when and where are your meetings again?
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