Christian roadblock

[ebonywnd]

Any one else have the pleasure of walking down the Brody path this morning? I almost couldn't. There was an almost complete roadblock of christians there, letting nary a soul pass through their grasp unscathed. Basically....I was walking along, headphones on, minding my own business, when I saw two well dressed women standing right in my path. There was also a man and another woman on the the other side of the path, I believe, but they weren't important. So anyway, I moved to go around them, but they were friendly, and smiled. So, me being the friendly heathen that I am, I smiled back.

So, one of them asked me if I had a minute to spare. I stopped walking, because I am polite, but I saw part of a button that was descretely half tucked under her coat lapel. I read ".....sus Christ" and started laughing to myself. So in response to her "do you have a minute?" I said flat out "No" after an obvious glance at her button. I think it took them by surprise. As I walked away, I hoped they had seen my "Darwin rules!" button on my bag. Though now, I kind of wish I had stopped to hear what they had to say...I am feeling a little pugnacious today anyway. Besides...it is always good to flex your mental muscles. I almost feel like going back there just to talk to them.

But anyway....yeah, they were trying hard not to let anyone past them. It was hindering traffic. Pushy christians.

-Laura "I've always thought God was a lot like Santa...they were both created by man to fill some need in the human psyche. Though Santa may have been a real person at one point. God has no excuse." McIntosh

[Magonus]

Yet, once you said you weren't interested, no more move was made to hinder you, correct? What's the problem?

As for your quote, it brings an interesting point. Many people claim that God was created in the image of man, rather than the other way around. But consider this:
If this were so, would Christianity be such a demanding religion? In most world religions, good deeds or rituals can earn your way to an eternal reward... Christianity is the only religion where this is not so, where you can't be "good enough" to get into Heaven. Also, as far as being in the "image of man", God is never described as anything like physical man which, if we had truly invented Him, would be all we have to go by, as opposed to God creating our souls in His image. Other religions do tend to describe their gods in terms of the physical (albeit often altered from humans to some degree ie extra limbs, great size, animal characteristics).

Magonus

[ebonywnd]

I wasn't really complaining about the christians...except for the fact that they were like a roadblock.

Wasn't God supposed to have created us in his likeness? And if that was just talking about our souls, then shouldn't it be much easier to live up to his standards? People can have very lofty aspirations that will never be reality. That is part of the nature of mankind.

-Laura "I wanna fly away....yeah, yeah, yeah." McIntosh

[profdunebastard]

Dude, Magdalene, the problem is there are days you can't go outside without being bombarded by people hoping to convert you. Sure, you can walk away, but you'll keep encountering people you'll have to say no thanks too. Hundreds of these incidents add up fast.

If you were beseiged br people asking you to follow Satan, or Zeus, or Allah, or Jehovah, or Cthulu everytine you stepped outside, you'd be bitching too.

Don't get me wrong, they have a constitutional right to whore their imaginary friend, I don't think anyone here is thinking of forcing them to stop, just wishing they would, but it is annoying-even if they back down once we walk away.

And the bible says God created man in his image, images of God are almost always shown with him as a dude with a beard except for more recently. And Christianity is allllll about good deeds and rituals getting you into heaven, accepting Jesus is among those rituals. I respect the fact you have the right to believe what you do, but don't presume to talk for all christians, or tell them what a true christian is-you just alienate and divide further that way. Bottom line is-you are a christian if you believe in christ's soverignity yada yada bla bla bla. You can throw in the trinity or original sin or predestination or fundamental interepretation, or whatever. You are not not one to say what is "good enough to get in to heaven", you don't know where god allegedly draws the linr to forgive or punish. Christianity is unique among religion really only for saying Christ was god, anyother special division or quality added to being christian is held by christians, and differs so much between various sects, that it is impossible to use to categorize or divine truth from anything. Again, you can believe, knock yourself out, but don't extend your believes to others, outloud anyway, especially to nonbelievers. We've heard it all before.

[Magonus]

In His likeness, but not identical. If he had made our souls to be completely morally just, we wouldn't have as much free will, since we would be that much more inclined to do good.

-Magonus

[profdunebastard]

If god is omnipotent and omniscient and transcendent, we have zero free will. Restricting evidence to biblical scripture, Adam and Eve were set up to eat the apple-god plants forbidden tree, makes humans inquisitive, lets serpent into tempt, we all know the story. It was a sting. It is a fine story for the time, a good way to explain morality in an oral tradition, using symbol, but hardly without logical holes or a means to glean all trutth of the ubiverse.

[profdunebastard]

By the way, Magonus, is there free will in a heaven? Could a person be good his entire life, accept jesus, be awesome in heaven for like a billion years, and then choose to sin? If not then there is no free will in heaven.

[the anti-myrmidon]

Have to run to class soon, but let me throw out something in reference to both Magonus' and dunebastard's points.

The works vs. faith debate in Christianity has raged from the beginning of Christianity until today. Christians at one point or another have advocated both extremes or some compromise in the middle. Even the "faith alone" Christians of today would frown upon a man who believes Jesus is his savior with all his heart, yet does drugs or has sex outside of marriage (or exposes a woman's boobie during the Super Bowl halftime show). The faith-alone belief isn't even that. Different councils, different denominations of Christianity have their own ideas of the role of faith and the role of good works. They are all still Christian. There is no one right answer that stands out among all.

The same goes for the divinity of Jesus. Debates over the Trinity, over the human vs. divine nature of Jesus have also raged for hundreds of years. There is slightly less variance about this in the present day, but it was ultimately a group of very human bishops who deemed the "fully human AND fully divine" trinitarian doctrine in various church councils as one would win a court case.

The point: there isn't one Christianity. It is a religion as diverse as the people who practice it. If there is a one "true" Christianity, there is no way to be sure of it, as many of these different versions all claim orthodoxy in their own way.

[profdunebastard]

You said what I was trying to, Anti-Myrmidon, only better because you are s m r t -er than I, in this field certainly. The only reason I said christians are simply people who revere christ, was an attempt to get a working definition of christian, as one would use in a religious studies course, and to underscore the diversity in belief. I realize in doing so I make a few generalities that come very close, or even cross the line, of not being true in some cases. It is what I get for using words like always and every, and I cede that, since christianity is so complex and varied, there are exceptions.

[Magonus]

Ok, first thing, there is only one Christianity. There are varying sects of Christianity, such as Catholics, Baptists, Nazarenes, Lutherans yadayada. Going back to the time of Paul and Peter, it was simply Christianity. Varying sects have differing beliefs about what constitutes Christianity, but I'm going to go simply off what the Bible says here.

As far as works v. faith, again, while some sects (especially Catholocism) believe good deeds will get you into Heaven, Biblically it is only through faith but because you are a Christian you will tend towards doing good deeds because you follow your conscience. Likewise, you wouldn't go out and be an adulterer (or Janet exposer) because you know it to be morally wrong. Do Christians slip up and sin? Of course, we're only human, but the point is to sincerely make ones best effort at resisting temptation, an effort aided by The Holy Spirit.

As far as God being shown as a human with a beard, that's an artists depiction. Many people have a problem imagining a cosmic, divine entity, so they give God an image in their own mind. Again, if man had truly invented God, the Bible might describe him as the old man.

As far as sinning in Heaven, yes, someone could sin, but then they would probably be cast out like Satan was.

While I on occasion get annoyed by people of different faiths preaching their dogma on campus, I just say I'm not interested and walk on.

And honestly, next time you want to argue against something, maybe learn the facts about it, rather than arguing against a straw man?

-Magonus

[ebonywnd]

Magonus said:

because you are a Christian you will tend towards doing good deeds because you follow your conscience. Likewise, you wouldn't go out and be an adulterer (or Janet exposer) because you know it to be morally wrong. Do Christians slip up and sin? Of course, we're only human, but the point is to sincerely make ones best effort at resisting temptation, an effort aided by The Holy Spirit.


As far as sinning in Heaven, yes, someone could sin, but then they would probably be cast out like Satan was.

-Magonus

Ok, first...are you saying that only a christian has a conscience and thus is the only type of person that can do what is right and moral? I don't really think that is what you meant to say here, but I could be wrong. I mean, I do give the wrong people the benefit of the doubt at times. I would appreciate a better explaination of this thought, please.

And second...how do you reason that you have free will, yet believe that god is omnipotent, omniscient and transcendent? Please explain your views on this too, if you would.

Just for the record, I am not attacking you in any way. I would honestly like you hear your views.

-Laura

[Magonus]

First, no I did not mean that non-Christians don't have morals or know the difference between right and wrong. My meaning was that, virtually by definition, a true Christian will listen to their conscience more often than not, as religious beliefs are often part of the foundation of who we are and that is a large part of Christianity.

As far your second issue, I have often had issue with that myself, in the past. The basic argument against an omnipotent, omniscient God is the idea of if He truly is all knowing, then he knows everything that will ever happen, hence we have no control over any of it because it was predestined since the begining of time. But just because you know something is going to happen, doesn't mean that you cause that thing to happen. An example is football games. I don't know if you're a fan or not, but this fall University of Oklahoma was absolutely dominant most games. One game, against the University of Texas, they won 65-13. Anyone watching that game, in the final minutes, with Oklahoma ahead by 50 points, knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that Oklahoma would win that game. Does that mean that we, watching from our TVs at home, somehow influenced the outcome of that game? No. You can have knowledge of something without causing it.

Another point is the existence of evil deeds. If we lacked free will and God had predestined everything, there would be no evil commited in the world, because God would not cause evil to occur.

-Magonus

[Haereticus]

As far as works v. faith, again, while some sects (especially Catholocism) believe good deeds will get you into Heaven, Biblically it is only through faith but because you are a Christian you will tend towards doing good deeds because you follow your conscience. Likewise, you wouldn't go out and be an adulterer (or Janet exposer) because you know it to be morally wrong.

A closer examination of Roman Catholic theology will show that the issue is more complicated. While Catholicism rejects sola fide, to say that Catholicism maintains that "works" will get one into heaven is inaccurate. To oversimplify, Catholicism advocates faith plus "works". The following links provide a more thorough treatment on this issue:

www.newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm
www.newadvent.org/cathen/06701a.htm

As has already been mentioned, the faith versus works debate has been argued since Martin Luther and is essentially insoluble because the debate is based on dfferences in interpretation. With that being said, the essence of the theological conflict is how to resolve James 2:14-26 with Pauline theology. A contextual exegesis, along with cross analysis of the Pauline canon (Galations and Romans, in particular), will require Xians to resolve the apparent contradiction. Furthermore, a reexamination of Xian praxis may yield a better understanding of the nature of Xianity (in a perspectival way).

Of course, playing video games may be a more constructive use of one's time.

Haereticus

[Magonus]

I see no contradictions with the passage in James. As I said earlier, if you are a Christian, you will do good works as a matter of conscience. What James is basically condemning is spouting off at the mouth... Saying your a Christian but not backing it up. Sort of a "practice what you preach" mentality is what he was, well, preaching.

As for the rest of Haereticus' argument, I'm tired and shall deal with it come the 'morrow.

-Magonus

[the anti-myrmidon]

There are also passages in Matthew which emphasize works over faith, whether entirely or in part. I am currently without time or book (I lent it out) to get the specific passages, but can get them if the need arises. One was about the rich young man and mentioned works and somewhat about Jesus as messiah (though not as the literal son of god, which doesn't occur in Matthew or Mark), and the other was about the left vs. right hand path being chosen based on works done to the least of brothers or something like that.