|
Post by the anti-myrmidon on Oct 31, 2003 22:40:34 GMT -5
Let's get people talking...
Are efforts to remove references like "under God" in the Pledge or "in God we Trust" from money and the national motto a waste of time or a worthwhile endeavor? Why?
Perhaps to put things in perspective, there was a political battle that lasted over a century (1809-1912) because some people were offended that the Postal Service was operational on Sundays.
Anyway, share your thoughts, and let us get some discussion going!
|
|
|
Post by Ravenlock on Nov 1, 2003 15:55:24 GMT -5
You know, I never even really thought about the fact that the Postal Service was only inactive on Sundays. Hmmph.
As per your question... no, its not trivial, and yes, it is.
Why no? Well, most of us will probably agree on the surface value of it - i.e. its my tax dollars, it should include me too. I do think it goes deeper, however, and goes somewhat hand-in-hand with my problem with popular culture figures atributing their successes to God.
It has to do with priorities and understanding the value of humanity's accomplishments. Much in the same way I believe an athlete who thanks god for the results of his hours of intensive training is selling himself short and opening up to the possibility of a lack of accountability, ensnaring every governmental thing we do with a diety is leading to the impression that God has given us what we've worked for in this nation, not hard work of those before us. Its taking the things that, despite my endless bitching about this nation make it still a very good place to be, for granted. Once you start taking things for granted, its easier to not care when they are taken away.
I sincerely believe the Patriot Act would have started a revolution in the United States 50 years ago. Today, it's more of a topic of griping. Scarey shit.
^That's not a really well thought out statement. I'm sure when I read it later I'll know how to better phrase it, but anyone feel free to ask for clarification.
As far as the yes side... I sometimes feel that we should focus our time on something larger, but then I realize that these things are the tips of the cultural iceberg. When we fight to have all groups accepted politically, we're really fighting to make everyone accept that we're here, we're not going away, and that we have every right to be a part of society as anyone else. The pledge, money, and other ch/state violations are the political front of a cultural war.
~Roger
|
|
|
Post by Seany-D on Nov 2, 2003 10:38:04 GMT -5
Actually, given what the morals of this country seem to really be rooted in, I think the motto should be changed to "In Gold We Trust".
Fact is, the old US motto, E Pluribus Unum, philosophically makes a much stronger statement than IGWT. I certainly don't put my trust in a fictional being. EPU is an ideal that we should strive for, and while I believe it is unattainable at the highest degree, like Sisyphus, we should try to keep rolling that rock uphill (note: unintentional beer reference).
Sean "semper ubi sub ubi" Davis
|
|
|
Post by Magnus Tyrarr on Nov 4, 2003 13:19:05 GMT -5
A note on what Ravenlock said: it was indeed the athelete who put in the hours and hours of training. it was indeed humans who fought wars and worked to make America what it is today (for good or ill). But a few notes on that. To quote Donald Sutherland as Bill Bowerman in the movie Without Limits "You (Prefontaine) have more natural talent than anyone I have ever seen. You're heart can probably pump more blood than anyone alive today. Don't try and tell me that you don't have any talent, that's it's 100% hardwork and will power." Yes they bust their asses to get to the level that they are at, but they were also blessed with the natural talent to make it that far. I believe that's where most athletes are going when they thank God after a victory.
And as far as our country, how great (how worth fighting for even) would America be without the countless miles rich with natural resources? No human can build a giant forest to provide for a logging industry. No human can seed the ground with ores to make a successful foundry. We owe our success to hard work and dedication of men, but we owe the resources that made that success possible to God. Otherwise, there wouldn't have been an American to build.
|
|
|
Post by ebonywnd on Nov 4, 2003 13:45:05 GMT -5
When an athlete thanks God for his natural talent, I am assuming he doesn't stop and take into account natural variation among species. Some people are short, some are tall, some have physical prowess. It does not mean that God had anything to do with it. It's natural selection, which allows us to evolve.
And in response to your comment about our natural resources... Do you honestly think God made this beautiful earth just so we can destroy it? Just so we can chop down the trees that we need to survive? We are destroying this planet through greed, and God doesn't seem to be doing anything about that. If our success can be measured by how much we destroy, then yes, we are wildly successful.
The world as we know it was formed over billions of years, with natural diversity from evolution. If the environment had been different enough, maybe trees would never have evolved, but for life to exist, there had to be certain natural laws. Life is only here because it could adapt and conform to those laws.
|
|
Seirscius
Proliferator of Blasphemy
Posts: 40
|
Post by Seirscius on Nov 4, 2003 16:00:13 GMT -5
I'm far more for the "Under God" statement being removed from the pledge than from our currency. Removing that statement from the pledge is negligible in cost. On top of this, it is said regularly by children all around the country and reinforces their theistic beliefs. I am definitely for its removal. However, our currency is another issue. I do not care for it being on my money, but it seems ridiculous to completely reprint all of the US currency in order to remove it (on the other hand, how much did it cost our government to start printing state coins and colored twenties?). I generally try and take is as some terribly biased and inaccurate form of our national heritage, and that makes me slightly less irritated than assuming our entire country places itself in God's hands. Perhaps God made the world full of resources so that we could deplete them and move onto other galaxies of interest, allowing humans to explore the wonders of the entire universe that he has created. While there is definite selection from an evolutionary perspective, as determinism is yet to be proven correct (whole quantum machanics and string theory makes it tough), a Christian could argue that God works through data loss when particles fall into one of the mini-dimensions described in string theory (note that I am butchering it, as my understanding of the entire concept is very limited to a few pages/diagrams in Brian Greene's "The Elegant Universe" - a PHY major's explanation of the phenomenon would be met with a warm welcome) and incorporates new data in order to incur minor fluctuations in probabilities to give people certain gifts millions of years after the event (also, data loss of particles is debatable according to Hawking...he's in support of it though, and says Physicists are too eager to have a world that makes perfect sense and it is clouding their judgement). I'm still an Atheist - I just like to argue. Even if it is from a point that I completely disagree with. My fallback has always been Einstein's "I cannot conceive of a god who rewards and punishes his creatures or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egotism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature." (as quoted from Carl Sagan's "Billions and Billions"...it's probably in Einstein's "Ideas and Opinions" somewhere, but this should suffice). Then there's the entire contradiction between having a deity with knowledge of all events past, present and future while humans having "Free Will". And of course the oddity that God would ever let Satan come into existence...I've yet to have someone his reasoning behind that one.
|
|
Magnus
Casual Heathen
Posts: 15
|
Post by Magnus on Nov 5, 2003 14:47:56 GMT -5
While we're quoting Al, "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
|
|
Seirscius
Proliferator of Blasphemy
Posts: 40
|
Post by Seirscius on Nov 7, 2003 17:23:48 GMT -5
Who says he's referring to Christianity? Religion as a whole doesn't need to involve specific a deity at all. I have no opposition to the concept of a religion, especially when they are borderline philosophies.
|
|
|
Post by Valvilis on Nov 8, 2003 17:14:44 GMT -5
Einstein's quotes are probably taken out of context more than any other great mind in history. Theists just love to take a sentance or two of what he had to say and pretend it was about their religion. He made it very clear numerous times what he did and did not beleive.
"I get hundreds and hundreds of letters but seldom one so interesting as yours. I believe that your opinions about our society are quite reasonable. It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
"I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science. My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance-but for us, not for God."
"The religious feeling engendered by experiencing the logical comprehensibility of profound interrelations is of a somewhat different sort from the feeling that one usually calls religious. It is more a feeling of awe at the scheme that is manifested in the material universe. It does not lead us to take the step of fashioning a god-like being in our own image-a personage who makes demands of us and who takes an interest in us as individuals. There is in this neither a will nor a goal, nor a must, but only sheer being. For this reason, people of our type see in morality a purely human matter, albeit the most important in the human sphere."
Virtually every quote by Einstein concerning religion can fall into one of two categories. 1) Where "god" is understood to be nature itself, simply expressing Einsteins awe at the complexity therein, or 2) an all and out tounge-in-cheek stab at Christianity.
I guess I've never really understood why someone would quote someone they know nothing about...
|
|
jamie
Casual Heathen
Posts: 8
|
Post by jamie on Nov 17, 2003 20:16:26 GMT -5
They quote something they dont understand because it seems so logically understood that it backs up their point - however, they never fail to read everything it pertains too. Which is why 'Famous Quote' books are rather trivial - they never give the circumstances in which some tough quotes are derived from.
The United States of America was founded on the principle of religion, and being able to have the freedom to do whichever one pleases. Why remove a foundation from our history - when it has done nothing wrong to us? Besides, God is the only thing that does not deteriorate over years - money and anything materialistic does - which is why the phrase is on money, because it signifies the fact that America, although it really is now, is not bent on its money, and that it fully realizes that money is something that is solely tangible and can increase and decrease in value whenever it chooses.
|
|
|
Post by Valvilis on Nov 17, 2003 22:37:05 GMT -5
Wow, I see that you find it is wrong to use a quote out of context, but not to just flat-out make erroneous claims. If god doesn't deteriorate, why have there been thousands of them? Why can't Christians even agree on a single sect? Why has Christianity dropped world wide by more than 50% in the past 50 years? Why are there less and less Christians in America every day? If god does not deteriorate, why is it that more and more people find the entire idea idiotic? You're a follower of yet another inevitibly dead religion. Christianity isn't even the oldest alive today, and won't even make it to the top five longest lasting ever. The phrase was added to the money during the communist/atheist scare because those in power feared an American enlightenment.
|
|
|
Post by Valvilis on Nov 17, 2003 22:40:30 GMT -5
Oh, and by the way, I didn't even want to touch this part:
"Why remove a foundation from our history - when it has done nothing wrong to us?"
Ha ha ha he he he ho ho ho... that's good stuff. A monkey with no fingers could form a better grip on a greasy ice cube than the grip you seem to have on reality.
|
|
|
Post by Rama321 on Nov 17, 2003 22:43:10 GMT -5
Wow. I mean, wow. So we're founded on the principle of religion are we? Shit, does everyone know we have a secular constitution?! Damn, after all these years nobody bothered changing it when the founding fathers so obviously wanted a theistic government? Oh woe is me, I'm such a fool. And I know where you'll go with this, and NO, America was not founded on Christian ideals. First, if you want to claim blatant misogyny, condoned slavery, and child labor as Christian ideals...knock yourself out. As for all the good stuff though, they're not Christian ideals, they're POSITIVE ideals. X-tianity isn't the first wahoo cult to tell everyone to love their neighbors and not steal. Ever heard of buddhism? I'm told it's actually older than Christianity! The reason religion "hasn't done anything wrong" to us is because we haven't let it. And by the way, your statement that it hasn't done anything wrong for us is patently absurd (Matthew Shepperd anyone? Lets play a game, we'll call it "Who can rattle off all the times religion has been used to justify ignorance and bigotry?!") If you want a lesson in what church-state union can result in then go take a few European history classes. Familiar with the Spanish inquisition? Salem witch hunts? Slaver...wait, already covered that one. For your statement that God is the only thing that does not deteriorate over the years... Just a second, let me compose myself. "BWAAAAAA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gods decaying: Zeus Thor The Earth Mother Zarathustra Jehovah (Catholic priests raping children isn't decay? Huh?)
Your analysis of the dollar bill is interesting, but again, patently absurd. It was added during the cold war (I forget my years and presidents, forgive me) to help combat the evil atheist commy baby-eaters. The only reason slid through was because everyone's attention was focused elsewhere. If you can find some statement in government archives saying what you just claimed then I'll rescind my derision, but until then, eat up.
Shit, and I was feeling stressed out until this evening.
|
|
|
Post by Mitchell on Nov 17, 2003 23:22:05 GMT -5
I would like to bring to the table the point that any Christian today will admit that Christianity in and of it's self is not the oldest religion... it has never been claimed to be such. However Christianity has its roots in every Jewish belief... a system of beliefs that, yes, has been around longer then any other religion. Christ came to save the Jewish people from sin... which no man can claim he is without.
God did not create a world intended for destruction... he did however create a people to love him and worship him. If God only wanted love he would not have given free will... free will lets us come to God with love that is our own, that is real. That love is what God wanted and he could only get that through a people born of freewill.
This now brings about the point of the destruction of our world. Humans by their nature are sinful... a sinful nature that stems from the first sin that Adam committed... the only way around that is through Jesus Christ. Our free will has allowed US to destroy what GOD created for us, it lets us be tainted and kill what God so beautifully created. Free will is also the reason that people screw up, like catholic priest, of which only a few did all the horrible things you will bring up.
Now look into history... do you want a great historical reference... in fact probably the most accurate and well preserved of all books, then grab a bible. If you can believe any historical book written over a century ago you should realize that the bible is accurate. Whether or not you want to believe, it is the truth.
Now, does or doesn’t God decay… Well in point of fact YES many “Gods” have decayed, but not the one and only true God. I can explain to you historically where most Gods came from but I do not have the time to get into it. Our God, the God of Abraham, has not decayed over time… People have, they screw it up but that doesn’t mean that God has. You could say great things about me today, I could keep on being me without changing, and in 50 years you could say I was a horrible person but would this mean my integrity had decayed, that I was in fact the person you said I was? No it wouldn’t. That would only be your opinion of me, not who I was. The same goes for God… he hasn’t changed. People, like many of you, have changed who you see him as and, by talking about him in forums the way you do, led others to believe what you believe.
Continue to fight over this… it doesn’t matter at all. You can stop believing in a bus but the day you walk out in front of one you’ll be hit with the truth. Your belief doesn’t affect mine. Your arguments are childish and are not in any way matured. Look at the religion without bias and ask for someone’s help… you will see exactly that truth.
Only one more point. Evolution is far more illogical then Christianity or creationism. To evolve would take an alteration that has a very small chance of happening in the first place. This would then need to be something that is beneficial and survives our environment. You would now need to be able to continue the change until the species changes… Of course this can happen on small scales, like bacteria, but to change a human being isn’t possible… to many “missing links” The chance of evolution working is the same as completely taking a wrist watch apart… placing the pieces in a stadium… letting a tornado come in and spin it all around… then finding that wrist watch working, set at the right time, at the 50 yard line… it just couldn’t happen. This only has about a 10^45 chance of happening, I can’t comprehend that number, can you? It only makes sense that there was a designer, an architect behind it all.
|
|
jamie
Casual Heathen
Posts: 8
|
Post by jamie on Nov 18, 2003 2:35:18 GMT -5
Wow, I see that you find it is wrong to use a quote out of context, but not to just flat-out make erroneous claims. If god doesn't deteriorate, why have there been thousands of them? Why can't Christians even agree on a single sect? Why has Christianity dropped world wide by more than 50% in the past 50 years? Why are there less and less Christians in America every day? If god does not deteriorate, why is it that more and more people find the entire idea idiotic? You're a follower of yet another inevitibly dead religion. Christianity isn't even the oldest alive today, and won't even make it to the top five longest lasting ever. The phrase was added to the money during the communist/atheist scare because those in power feared an American enlightenment. Your whole arguement is based upon the choice a person can make. A choice that we all make whether or not to believe and devote said life to Jesus Christ. As far as I know, God gave us all a free will to do as we please, which is why there is still evil, greed, etc., etc., in this world today. It's here because there are people that want is here. Plain and simple.
|
|