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Post by Seany-D on Oct 31, 2003 12:31:34 GMT -5
First, I guess I should point out that the problem wasn't with Bible Week per se, but the fact that the government had taken a stance on said week. Hence, our actions to recommend church/state separation week. Second, asking that church and state be held separate is in no way blasphemous. If you read our resolution, you'll note we did not take a stance that would insult your God or the concept of said deity. Third, I, as many others here, have found peace outside of a deity-religion construct, and while I find that comforting and rational, we have in no way inhibited others from seeking personal or spiritual guidance through religious or secular means. As for further reading on the state-church issue and how it was formented by the founding fathers of the US, I'd suggest the Barbary Treaties ca. 1796 as a loose start.
Sean "Freethinking on a Friday" Davis
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Post by FishBait on Oct 31, 2003 15:02:50 GMT -5
You dont need to have scientific proof that God exists. You need only to accept by faith the He is out there. With all of the intricacies in the universe how on Earth can you say that it was all by chance that the formation of the universe happened. If the Earth were slightly closer or farther away from the sun, the planet would burn up or freeze. The moon is in the perfect loacation so that it will not tumble away and our tides do not increase drastically. Heres an idea how about you give me concrete evidence that God does not exist.....then we can talk. There is no chance that we are all here without the divine hand of God. I hate when people use the complexity of the world and universe as evidence of a god. if you understood anything about science you'd know that was complete bullshit, first off, yes everything is in perfect alignment becuase if it didn't it would go flying off in the wrong direction or something like that, it is that way becuase after the big bang (which there is a great deal of scientific evidence behind) things split up and some things were drawn into the orbits of other things and stuff like that, some of the details are still a bit sketchy but that's only because scientists don't pretend to know things that they don't have good scientific evidence for (and there's probably a lot of stuff i don't know about that, that an astrophysist might, i wonder how many astrophysists still believe in god?), any complexity in our world can be explaned through science, as for disproving the existence of god, that may not be possible, we can however disprove many religious beliefs, like for one the idea of an all powerful, all knowing, loving god, ok, maybe you'll say he just doesn't care to get that involved in the current world and any problems in this world are caused by human free will, what about hell? why would any loving god create hell? why would any god just create people so they could worship him? as a side note i agree with the statements of ian about how the existence of a magical divine koala monster is equally likely, actually i see a great significance between god and santa claus...your just expected to believe they exist and do good and good things will happen to you, the only difference: i found santa to be a bit more believable, i could at least convince myself he still existed till i was about 5, i was never that convinced god existed do you still believe in santa claus?
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Post by the anti-myrmidon on Oct 31, 2003 16:34:46 GMT -5
Ryan, I second what Seany-D said for starters. Furthermore, Church/State separation week is religiously neutral while Bible week is not, so that would answer why, should the issue have arisen, why government endorsement of the former would be definitely constitutional while the latter exists in a constitutional gray area. Also, as anonymous user pointed out, council meetings, both general meetings and work sessions are open to the general public; no invitation necessary. Plus, as this issue has been published over the last few weeks in the State News, there was more than ample opportunity for you to be aware of what our group was doing and to be able to advance your own views in front of the Council.
If you consider church/state separation to be blasphemous, then you are probably in the wrong country as our foremost founding fathers were very much in favor of keeping the two apart so as to keep them from harmful influences of each other. Many of the constitutional delegates were indeed Christians, but they too saw the need to keep religion from harming government and vice versa. There was a push to create a "Christian" nation which extended special rights to that one faith system, but it was soundly defeated at the Constitutional Convention.
While the exact words "wall of separation between church and state" do not appear in the Constitution (appearing rather in Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptist, though the wall metaphor may have been borrowed from Roger Williams), the concept exists de facto in both the Establishment and Free Exercise Clauses. Furthermore, the courts have extended these protections to state actions, and have further fleshed out the meaning of both clauses.
As for finding peace with God, I can personally say that that I lack a belief in a higher power, so there is little point in trying to make peace with something in which I do not believe. It is as silly a notion as an atheist being angry at God (how can one be angry at something he does not believe exists?) Opposing the governmental endorsement of Bible week is a far cry from hindering the spiritual quests of others (though that endorsement may arguably hinder the legitimacy of non-Judeo-Christian spiritual quests in the eyes of government). I encourage everyone to research different religious and philosophical views to find their own niche, whether it is as a Christian, Buddhist, atheist, Muslim, Pagan, Hindu, Jain, Sikh, satanist, Jew, Zoroastrian, etc....; I do not limit that encouragement to one view only.
As a final note, your demand of proof that God does not exist is logically fallacious. The burden of proof lies on the one making the positive claim (i.e. god exists). Can you prove that the Goddess (or Odin, or Zeus, or Baal, or Vishnu, etc.) does not exist? I would highly doubt it. Also note that faith and evidence are two separate things.
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Post by the anti-myrmidon on Oct 31, 2003 16:37:42 GMT -5
Ian, I just wanted to add that your post was excellent. Besides, the magical divine koala monster is a nice addition to the ranks of the invisible pink unicorn and the translucent purple polka dotted monkey and his Saturn-orbiting teacups ;D
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Post by Frogsy on Oct 31, 2003 17:33:57 GMT -5
"I just thought I would tell you guys that you have no idea what you are talkin about." Please enlighten me. "Bible Week is not trying to force religon down your throat. If you dont want to read it or participate in the week then dont." No, Bible Week is not forcing religion down my throat; however, by recognizing Bible Week, the East Lansing City Council is endorsing said religion, which is a big no-no. Don't worry; I have no plans of reading the Bible that week. I prefer non-fiction. "Quit whining and complaining about how Bible Week is so fundamentally wrong." But it is. "You cant give me one valid reason how this week is more unconstitutional than your blasphemous Church/State Separation Week." Point 1... yes, I can give you one valid reason. I'm sure you've heard of the "Establishment Clause" in the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. In case you haven't, here it is, word for word: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." By endorsing Bible Week, E.L. City Council is endorsing a religion. And that, my friend, is unconstitutional. If you don't buy that argument, I encourage you to look up the Supreme Court cases Lemon vs. Kurtzman and Allegheny vs. ACLU, both on our website. There are two more valid reaons Point 2... Church/State Separation is hardly blasphemous. If you look up the definition of "blasphemy," it reads "grossly irreverent toward what is held to be sacred." Church/State Separation has nothing to do with your god; it has to do with our government and its endorsement of ANY god or religion. Besides, how can we be "blasphemous" towards a being many of us don't believe in? "There is not single spot in the entire Constitition where it states that the Church and the State shall be separate. Rather it states that the State shall not force any religon upon its people." I again encourage you to read not only the First Amendment, but the Supreme Court interpretations of it as well as documents written by our founding fathers on the issues of state and religion entanglement. "And if you want to make any other observation days unconstitutional then maybe you should also ask yoursle if months like Black, Women, Hispanic, etc History Months are constitutional." These months celebrate heritage, not religious beliefs that can, and often ARE, changed on a whim. And as far as I know, there is nothing in the Constitution that says the government cannot educate about heritage. "I hope you all are satisfied with your outcome." We are ;D "It is simply a pity that since you cannot find peace with God in your own personal lives that you have to hinder others from finding Him." Church/State Separation Week does nothing to hinder people from finding God. If they want to find him, they will, whether or not we have this week recognized by the E.L. City Council. I thought it just took faith? Or is it "Faith, as long as no blasphemous group is out there making people follow the Constitution!" ?? No, I cannot find peace with a being I don't believe in, sorry. It just doesn't work that way. "This all I really have to say so I hope you take this to heart and think about what you have done." I've thought EXTENSIVELY about what we've done, and I'm overjoyed about it. And if this is really all you have to say, why are you still posting?
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Post by Ravenlock on Oct 31, 2003 17:39:12 GMT -5
Well! Such a quick and decisive response and I never got to be a part of it! d**n comcast for going down! Wankers! Won't have internet back until tomorrow afternoon. Nothing more for me to say now, as everyone's so effectively covered the bases, but that may change. Oh, and I'll disable the naughty words filter. Although that leads to some really funny lines. Pregnant dog? lol Very *friendly* Jesus? Classic. ~Roger
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Post by FishBait on Nov 1, 2003 0:33:55 GMT -5
i like how it changed my bull s h i t to bullnuts, that was quite entertaining
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Post by Seany-D on Nov 3, 2003 9:32:26 GMT -5
The State News ran an editorial today on the city council's approval of Bible Week, both applauding them for taking action and castigating them for changing the dates for which they recognize the week. www.statenews.com/op_article.phtml?pk=20433Sean "can't come up with a tag line early Monday morning" Davis
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Post by Atsuko73 on Nov 5, 2003 13:53:28 GMT -5
Where did Ryan go?
....
::looks around::
....
typical. ;D
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Post by Seany-D on Nov 10, 2003 11:58:18 GMT -5
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